Join us as we chat with Claudia and Rosie, LGBTQ+ parents of Mexican heritage raising their family in Indiana. Together, they’ve seen it all: Being discriminated against because of their ethnicity, gender expression, sexual orientation, language, and more. But throughout that struggle, they’ve become pillars in their community and beacons of hope.
In this episode, we talk about their love story, becoming parents, finding community in rural Indiana, and navigating the fear and anxiety that comes from something as simple as using the restroom.
Episode Transcript
Claudia:
Hello, this is Claudia and Rosie. We’ve been together since 99. We’ve lived together for 23 years. We live in the state of Indiana, and we’ve been legally married for 9 years. And we’re still here and in love, Claudia and Rosie.
Rosie:
We have been together for 24 years, living together for 23 years, and legally married for nine years. And above everything else, this summer, we’ll be married in the Catholic church, which is the most important thing for me and my family.
Eric:
This is Shining Through the Clouds, an exploration of the resilience of LGBTQ+ families in America. I’m your host, Eric Fleming. We introduced you to Claudia and Rosie in our premiere episode. But just to refresh your memory, Claudia is a non-binary youth worker of Mexican heritage living in rural Indiana with their wife, Rosie. These two have a story, okay? They’ve seen it all. They’ve been discriminated against because of their ethnicity, because of their appearances, because of their sexual orientation, language barriers. The list goes on. Throughout all of that struggle, these two have become pillars in their community and beacons of hope. They started organizations and initiatives that focus on fostering safety and connection. They’ve created a library for LGBTQ+ books that have been banned. They provide resources, sometimes even food and clothes for queer folks in their community. These two are doing the work.
Joined today by a fellow Joy Channel team member, Marian. Say hey, Marian.
Marian:
Hey!
Eric:
I’m really grateful to have you here today. I appreciate your presence. Marian will be helping us out with some translations and offering some additional insight and perspectives about this story. Now, Miriam, I feel like you were really connected or were affected by this story, particularly when it came to Rosie telling us about her immigrant experience. What impacted you so much by this story and what do you think is important to hear from these two?
Marian:
Okay, so I think what I think is important is when we hear about Latinos or we hear about Latinos immigrating from the southern border, we hear about them as victims or as sort of fleeing a bad situation. But once they get here, and they create a life, we don’t know what type of struggles they go through in assimilating to the culture. And I think it’s interesting to understand that there are so many nuances to being an immigrant, just nuances as to why you had to leave from where you were and nuances from what it’s like for you now in this new place. And I think that to be an immigrant, to be someone who flees where they were born is a story of heroes. It’s not a story of victims, and it’s important that we listen to how these heroes are experiencing our own culture when they arrive for a hopeful new future.
Eric:
Let’s dive into the Rosie and Claudia origin story. Now, this involves the movie Titanic. So we have to picture it all with my heart will go on playing in the background. Okay?
Claudia:
So hopefully you guys believe us. Okay. We met each other when I was five, and she was seven. My sister married into her dad’s side of the family, so they were neighbors. I went to visit my sister in Mexico, and I seen her for the first time. And when I was seven, I think is the first time I asked her for her name, her full name. I knew they called her Rosie. So she said, Rosada. And I was like, what a beautiful name. It fits you perfectly. I think that was my first way to tell her, “Hey, I like what I see.” But, we became friends. We became really good confidants for years, years. So we decided when I was done with high school, I was I think 17. How old were you like 19?
Rosie:
19.
Claudia:
I decided to go to Mexico and kind of get really connected with my parents’ roots. See what it was like to live out there. So obviously I decided conveniently to live with my sister who was neighbors of this cute girl. So I lived out there for a year, and even though we were friends, she knew I had dated girls before. So she’s actually the one who…I guess I didn’t take the lead. I never thought she had any interest in me, and we went out to see Titanic together as friends, and she made the first move of holding my hand, and she gave me the first kiss. That’s when I was like, wow, this is where I belong, and I’m not letting her go! That was the first move she made, and I was like, that’s it. I’m not letting you go. This is meant to be.
Eric:
See what I’m saying? So cute. Never let go, Claudia. So coming up, we have a little bit from Rosie about their early days, and Marian’s going to translate for us.
Marian:
Like she says, when we met, we were little girls. But I think at the beginning of knowing each other, what we said about what we felt was, this can’t be real. Is this real? I thought “Maybe I’m confusing these feelings. What am I feeling?” But as we grew up more, the feelings grew, and every time she would come to visit, I had this feeling of wanting to see her again. They would come twice a year. They would come in June and December. So that was when we would see each other and hang out. I come from a really strict family. They wouldn’t let me go out much. If I did, it was a few hours, and I would have to come back and if not, like she said, Titanic was the first time we went to see a movie.
Eric:
Something that you’ll hear from Claudia is that it’s really important for them to be a present and an example for younger people. An example of what’s possible. More specifically in this context, they wanted to show Latino kids that two women can love each other and have a family. I asked Claudia and Rosie about their little family, and what lights them up about it, and what it’s been like to form one. Here’s Claudia.
Claudia:
We do have a son. His name is Aaron Camargo. He’s nine years old. He’s what actually was what we could say, and we always say, was missing from our happiness that we needed. I guess, he made it possible. So Rosie carried our son, Aaron, and my brother was the sperm donor. It was very important for us to both have the connection in our child and well, I, I mean, I can tell you so many things that I think make our family wonderful. I think to be honest, I think it’s the love and the way we’ve overcome difficulties that have put us in this spot. Obviously, we didn’t have Aaron until nine years ago, so we were together for many, many years. We really put a lot of thinking to it. In our culture, it’s not well taken. It’s hard, especially if you come to your parents and say, Hey, so my brother’s going to be the sperm donor, which makes him kind of the father, but not really, but the uncle, but maybe not.
Claudia:
So it’s kind of complicated, but we’ve talked to our son about it. He knows exactly where he came from. He knows exactly how it was possible. He understands it, and he’s a very mature young kid. He understands it. He accepts it. And I think to be honest, I think our story or our family has changed a lot of people on their way of thinking. A lot of our family members at first thought it was a phase. They probably gave us three, four months, and we probably survived a couple to maybe more than a couple of marriages that first doubted our relationship. So our family, like I said, it’s love. It’s probably loyalty. It’s probably a surviving family. We’ve survived a lot, and I don’t want to say an example because we are all learning. We’re still learning, but we have shared our story several times, and it’s not for our own purpose, but we’ve always said it. We want somebody to know that it’s possible to make a family. I think my wife said it last time that we chatted, and I never thought of it that way, but for Hispanic kids, it’s very important to see a Hispanic couple with their own child that resembles both families because I don’t think in their mind sometimes that’s possible. So in that way, I would say that our family would be an example to others, that it’s to make your own family.
Eric:
Here’s Rosie telling us about how her life changed during pregnancy and transitioning to being a new mom, living in a new place and getting by on one income.
Rosie:
Maybe it wasn’t a difficult decision on its own. To have kids here was not my dream. I never thought about it. On the contrary, I said, “No, I don’t want to have kids here. They mistreat kids here.” Thanks to God, and thanks to my wife, I was able to take care of my child in my home, which was not easy either, because with only one income, it was difficult to pay for all the formula and cost of having a baby. I didn’t get any help. No one helped me with anything. When I left my job, they didn’t help me. Nobody paid for it. She had to do it alone. I don’t regret having him because he’s such a good kid, so sweet, so loving and honestly, he has changed our life really a lot. Thanks to him. Because when we were just as a couple, we enjoyed being just us. We enjoy — how can I say it? — we enjoyed too much. Too much because it was becoming a kind of boring routine. When the baby came, the love changed. The love grew, not just two, but now three. We were kind of used to the way our relationship was. He changed all that. It was beautiful because my mom would say, “You have to have a baby to get to know your blood.” That’s what my mom would say. And honestly, every time I see his little face, I don’t regret having him. Yes, but…I was afraid because how is he going to be able to face starting his school? When people would ask him, why do you have two moms? This was my fear. But until now, he, well, we have faced it really well.
Eric:
At the beginning of this episode, Marian referred to immigrants as heroes. I love that she framed the story with that in mind because it grounds us in the humanity of it all. It informs our lenses to view the story from a place of acknowledging what these folks overcome to get here, what they’re often fleeing from, but also what challenges face them when they arrive. It ain’t easy, honey. Let’s hear more from Rosie.
Rosie:
It’s very difficult, very, and it’s even more difficult to me because I arrived here illegally without knowing English and…different feelings that for the people, the viewpoint, this is not normal.
Besides, I came brokenhearted from Mexico as I was aware that I had to make my life here because I couldn’t go back — not because of other people’s opinion, but because I was something dirty from my family’s viewpoint. That’s why I understand the youth nowadays. Even the animals feel protected inside their house with their family. But I didn’t feel like this. I had to get out of my home to be happy and let my family be happy as well. That’s what my mom made me feel. She really cared about what people said about her, about what was going on at home, because I even came to listen that she would say, don’t worry. What she has is just a flu. She’s going to get over it, and she’s going to make a normal life again like everyone else with a man. And that is what would hurt me even more, because I knew that it wasn’t going to happen. That only made me stay here. And actually they don’t know how much I’ve suffered here. I’ve faced racism, humiliations, everything. You can’t imagine! And now think about the 14, 15 year old kids that my wife takes care of? It’s really sad what’s going on in the country. They’re supposed to be open-minded, and with people so closed off, they don’t understand your feelings. It’s not a flu that we got. This comes from inside.
Eric:
We heard from Claudia earlier about how important it is to be an example for the community, but there’s much more behind that passion and desire. We had a lengthy chat about safety and ensuring the safety of younger people, particularly when it comes to gender expression, the right to use the bathroom, and the right to come out when we’re ready.
Claudia:
I am 42 years old, and I still struggle when I go to a rest area because I don’t know where I should go, and all I need to do is use the bathroom. I don’t care about anybody else. I don’t care about who’s in there. The only thing I worry about is my safety, and it shouldn’t be that way. So if I’m 42 and I’m worrying about this, I don’t want to imagine a 12 year old or a 17 year old. So it breaks my heart that we’re not seeing it from the right perspective, and we’re focusing all our energy in something that should not need our energy. We should make it safer for these young kids. We grew up in a different era, and it was harsh. So now when I see these kids that can’t even speak in their own household because they don’t feel safe, and then they go out in public, and they still can’t feel safe in schools? I mean, it breaks my heart to see that we’re pushing our youth to places where they shouldn’t be to look for safety.
Eric:
Claudia cares so much about the safety and well-being of others, but what about them? I asked Claudia how they feel presenting as they do, living where they do, and what concerns they have about general safety.
Claudia:
Do I feel safe? No. There’s been more times that I’ve been kicked out of the wrong bathroom than not. I’ll tell you, the only time I accidentally walked into a guy’s room, nothing happened. It was night. It was a rest area here in Indiana. I was half asleep. I walked in there, and I realized a bunch of guys, everybody was like, “Hey, how are you doing?” Or “Have a good night.” Nothing whatsoever. And like I said, I’ve been kicked out probably four or five times from the ladies’ room. So what happened in Mexico? And my wife laughs because she’s always just, we take humor after our worst situations. If we don’t, we will lose our minds here. So we were at a restaurant in Mexico, and I went into the lady’s room, and there was a lady cleaning it, and she said, the guy’s room is just down the hall.
And I said, oh, thank you, but I’m going in here. And she was like, no, your restroom is down the hall. And she stood in front of the door, and I said, I understand, but I need the lady’s room. And she was like, no, the guys go in that room. And I said, I am not a guy, and I really need to use the restroom. I said, so, excuse me. So I went in, and she went to get the manager. The manager came in, and by then I was washing my hands and the manager was like, I hear there’s an issue. And I said, yes. She does not understand that I’m supposed to use the ladies’ room. I mean, I know I don’t look like a lady, but I am one, and this is the one I chose to use. So I came over, and I told my wife. I was embarrassed.
That was my first thing. I was embarrassed. I felt wrong for wanting to use the restroom that I thought was safe for me to use. I felt ashamed, but I think after talking to my wife and making a joke out of it, it helped me use it. So then three times it happened here in Indiana, and every time I feel embarrassed, I will be honest, I feel embarrassed. I have decided that I don’t want to do top surgery, and that is my decision. I like how I am. Those instances make me think, should I make it easier for everybody else? Should I do it? And just make it like, Hey, that way they won’t question me. But then I’m like, Hey, I just will have to work something out. So now we’ve learned to, even my kid knows I use the family rooms. The ones that are neutral. I can’t use one. If it’s not busy, I’m always stuck with waiting and they’re in and out, both Rosie and Erin. Does it suck? Yeah. Yeah. Because I have every right to just use the restroom like anybody else and not being questioned.
Eric:
Two sentences stand out here to me. One being: I felt wrong for wanting to use the restroom that I thought was safe for me to use, and the other was about Claudia having top surgery saying, “Should I make it easier for everybody else and do it?” I wanted to highlight these sentences because a good amount of the discourse around this topic often negates the safety and anxiety of the gender non-conforming person. We don’t hear about how people have to consider altering their bodies to make other people comfortable…just so they can use the bathroom in peace. There’s an incredible amount of fear that I hear in this story. Fear, anxiety, stress, and an absurd amount of adjusting oneself. I just wanted to name that. So how do they adjust? How do they cope with this lack of feeling safe? Let’s hear more.
Claudia:
I’m going to say that probably our church…there’s several couples. We actually have a big group that we all try to get together for holidays. Some of our families are not welcoming for holidays, so we get to do Thanksgiving, Christmas. It’s a big church group, and we’re very religious in our family, so that also helped us. And I like that because my son needs that. My son needs that family bond. My son needs to understand that we’re okay, and he gets that from our church. He gets that from her side of the family. They all live here. So when we’re feeling down or when we need that support at our first parade, they were there. So that would be our personal support group — her family and our church group.
Marian:
Hi, it’s Marian again. I want to point out an important nuance to this story, to someone’s life story. You may or may not know how important the Catholic religion is to Latin Americans as they were colonized by the Spanish, but the distinction’s important to understand the culture and the distinction’s important to understand why the church is such a refuge for Claudia and Rosie. And how interesting it is that at the same time, two people, three people, an entire family can see and perceive their church as their community at a local level and on a national level is actually pain and persecution that they’re facing. That nuance, that duality is something many of us hold, and we can see that with Claudia and Rosie. Catholicism is so important in Latin America that I have heard many people say, I’m not religious. I mean I’m Catholic, but not really, but I’m Catholic culturally. And what they mean is – is that they may not go to church, but the ideology of Catholicism, being married under the church in wedlock is very important for them to be accepted and to have a sense of belonging within their own families.
Eric:
It’s abundantly clear that living in this small rural town has presented a great deal of challenges for Claudia and Rosie. So why do they stay? What makes it worth it? I asked those questions directly. Here’s what Claudia and Rosie have to say about fighting and what continues to give them hope.
Rosie:
I’m very proud of my wife because she has suffered a lot – even more than me. She’s been involved in more things — maybe because of the language, and perhaps she doesn’t tell me some things to avoid worrying me. But I can see how the situation is, and it’s difficult. I just want you to know that the feelings that can exist between a woman and a man are the same that we have. It doesn’t matter if we are two women or two men. I just want respect and no judgment.
Claudia:
There’s hope because I look back at 20 some years where we came to Angola, and I can tell you we would’ve been pulled over for just looking Hispanic in a dominant white population. Now we drive and we get waves instead of actually pull over. There’s hope in the fact that some of the kids that join some of our events are graduating, and I’m not saying that thanks to me they’re graduating. I’m just saying that thanks to a support group, they are graduating. Every time I see a young kid show up to our events and smile among themselves, that’s my hope. I like to look at that, and I like to say, if they ever cry before, they’re able to smile because we’re putting this together for them. When I see them holding hands at the events, I know it’s still in Indiana. I know it’s still in a rural place, but it’s in a place they feel safe. So does that give me hope? Yes, it does.
Eric :
Marian, thank you so much for being with us today. I want to ask before we wrap, what are you left with from this story?
Marian:
This question that’s sitting with me now is: Is the feeling we associate with comfort actually safe? Or does it just make us feel in control? And I know, I know. Let me just break that down a little bit. When I talk about control, and this is not my original idea, I’ve heard this from someone I follow on Instagram called The People’s Oracle. She talks about control, and she says that it’s about control is about changing one’s mindset, but it’s not eliminating the source of the pain and safety means to be protected from harm. And in this story, I wonder, is the feeling that they or we ourselves associated with discomfort, actually safety or is it control? Which brings me to this idea that who has access to joy and comfort is a matter of equity.
Eric:
Thank you so much, Marian. Appreciate you. In full transparency, when I finished the chat with Claudia and Rosie, I couldn’t shake this feeling or thoughts about how unsafe they actually are. They have to deal with so much. I mean, there’s threats of physical harm, homophobia, transphobia, being an immigrant in a hostile place, all the things. And yet we see with these two, that representation still exists in these rural places, and it’s needed in these places. Resistance is on the ground, it’s in community building. It’s in advocating for each other. It’s in providing safe spaces for our most vulnerable, all the things that Claudia and Rosie are doing. So yeah, I think heroes might be the perfect language to use here for these two. Thanks for listening. If you want to support the work that Claudia and Rosie are doing, you can go to their website, steubenpride.org.
That is S-T-E-U-B-E-Npride.org. This has been a Joy Channel production in partnership with Family Equality. As the leading national organization for current and future LGBTQ+ families, we work to advance equality through advocacy, support, storytelling, and education to ensure that everyone has the freedom to find form and sustain their families. Our executive producer is Luna Malborough. Sound designed by Sean Braley. Music and music design by Will Clemens of Ill Will Rhythms incorporated. Story production and hosting by yours truly, Eric Fleming. You can follow us on socials at Find Your Joy Channel. Don’t forget to rate, subscribe, and review this podcast that helps us out a lot and spread the word. Send this to your friend, send it to your mama now. Take good care, y’all.